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Will Silverlight Controls Become More WPF Like - A Personal Opinion

I was told when I joined Microsoft that I no longer had personal opinions about matters having to do with Microsoft software, and certainly not about Silverlight. As a "Blue Badge" I'm just exposed to too much confidential information to be seen as offering informal speculation or personal opinions, or so they said.

It might even be true; who can really keep straight what you hear in back channels and what you hear inside your head (you don't hear little voices in your head? How do you get any work done?).

About a week ago a very smart fellow wrote to me asking for a list of the differences between Silverlight and WPF. I responded saying that I didn't think such a list existed and (I added) "the list is shrinking all the time." He immediately picked up on that and asked me if I was hinting that there is a plan to make Silverlight 2 considerably more like WPF.

Answer: I don't know. And I wouldn't say (we really are careful about not announcing features until they're cooked).

But let me step away from what I do know and put on my rational individual non-employee hat and observe (keeping in mind how often I've been wrong over the past 2 decades!)....

Silverlight was originally named WPF/E. The Silverlight controls are clearly and markedly very similar to and almost a subset of the WPF controls and Silverlight itself is very similar to and almost a proper subset of WPF - so much so that you can take a Silverlight application and plop it into a WPF application and it works (or it does after some tinkering; or it does after a lot of tinkering depending on how you wrote it and how late it is). So we can't be that far. It is just that some things don't work quite the way you expect.

For example, I blogged earlier about the fact that click events don't bubble. I sorta' kinda' understand why not, but they don't in Silverlight and they do in WPF. Will that change? Will they, eventually bubble in Silverlight? I don't know.

But again, let's think about the pressures on the programmers logically.

Here are these guys who built the Silverlight controls (e.g., the button) who are incredibly and justifiably proud of what they've wrought. They use the controls themselves. They also read the email from customers and from WPF programmers and from others, many of whom are confused by (or outraged by, or annoyed by, or mildly bemused by) the differences between Silverlight and WPF behavior.

I'm guessing they'd like the Silverlight click event to behave the same as the WPF click event. Either they think the Silverlight way is the right way for it to behave and they're in the offices of the WPF-control programmers banging on the desk trying to get them to change, or they are now looking again, perhaps banging on their own boss's desk (or on their own heads).

Now, again I don't know but I'm guessing that there are competing pressures. Two I can think of are money and time. After all, you don't just fix the button; you gotta fix all the controls. And you don't just fix Click, you gotta' fix the way all the events work; either you decide to match the routed event handling in WPF exactly or you decide on a different compromise.

Next, there's lots of other features waiting to be added.  And, of course, there are lots of other cool products waiting to be built. And, oh yeah, some developers are still being hired, some are being promoted, some are taking new jobs.... so there are pressures to move on and let things be.

Now, I don't know, but experience suggests that Microsoft has typically placed high value on (a) customer satisfaction and (b) developer respect and (c) common code and (d) not looking stupid.  So if I were a betting man, I'd bet that one day ASP.NET and WPF and Silverlight will all use code (mostly?) in common. On the other hand, I'm not sure I'd bet that we'd get there before all three technologies were supplanted by new and better technologies; which is one of the great pleasures of living in a world of rapid change.

But I don't know and I couldn't say if I did.

Published Saturday, March 22, 2008 6:00 AM by jesseliberty

Comments

# re: Will Silverlight Controls Become More WPF Like - A Personal Opinion

Thanks for going out on a limb again bro.

And yes, I've always heard little voices. ;-)

Saturday, March 22, 2008 7:27 AM by wisecarver

# re: Will Silverlight Controls Become More WPF Like - A Personal Opinion

Jesse, I think you painted the "reality" picture very well. As much as we all get frustrated about different things of SL, but it's nice that you leveled with us and say what could be going on.

Many years ago, I was in charge of a Medical project with my team and there was another team working on another existing medical project on a different platform (AS400). There were many great features in the AS400 product, but when I was designing it for PC, I took advantage of some of the features that the PC and OS gave us that AS400 didn't have and there were some features in AS400 and it's underlying database that we didn't have. And the two products grew apart.

This created a huge problems for customers, the company support, developers and etc. And as you said, it came to a point that our team was always in war with the other team trying to prove who is more correct than the other one. It was a mess. From the very beginning, when I took the position I told the owner, it's wrong to market the PC product to a group of AS400 users and making them think it's just overnight switch and everything is the same. He kept saying then I loose all my "Update" fees from AS400 to PC version. I had told him the two should live their own life and should not be equated the same from the start. They didn't listen to me until it was too late...

I fully understand the tough position the WPF and SL team are in and each one might be right in their own situation and we should respect that. I do because I've been there.

I hope many people get to read your post!

..Ben

Saturday, March 22, 2008 10:04 AM by BenHayat

# re: Will Silverlight Controls Become More WPF Like - A Personal Opinion

Thanks for sharing Ben.

I was able to do the same for a very large German company, moved them from Oracle to 100% Microsoft, saving nearly One Million U.S. dollars in the first 6 months.

(#1 Msft fan here. Ooh Rah!)

Jesse, looks like Ben and I are your Blog gnomes. ;-)

Saturday, March 22, 2008 12:24 PM by wisecarver

# re: Will Silverlight Controls Become More WPF Like - A Personal Opinion

>>Jesse, looks like Ben and I are your Blog gnomes. ;-)

Mark, I think Jesse is getting Tired of us ;-)

Saturday, March 22, 2008 12:31 PM by BenHayat

# re: Will Silverlight Controls Become More WPF Like - A Personal … | My Geek Solutions

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# Dew Drop - March 22, 2008 | Alvin Ashcraft's Morning Dew

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Saturday, March 22, 2008 2:41 PM by Dew Drop - March 22, 2008 | Alvin Ashcraft's Morning Dew

# re: Will Silverlight Controls Become More WPF Like - A Personal Opinion

and there you have it first hand... Silverlight will replace asp .net in the very near future ;)

such a tease!

Saturday, March 22, 2008 9:16 PM by chris_vickerson

# re: Will Silverlight Controls Become More WPF Like - A Personal Opinion

Certainly you have multitudes of competing priorities, but I think you should remember SL is a framework and what you do today has a constraining effect on what you will be able to do tomorrow. And in the context of SL and WPF, it is no secret that MS has publicly stated SL will have things tickle down from WPF, and to look to SL's future we need to have a look at WPF. Now, this begets the question why change some of the core fundamentals today that would without doubt mandate changes in and limitations to what you can bring down from WPF. Case in point, triggers - why push the parts model when you have a perfectly good model in triggers and creating two models will only lead to bigger splits or painful sharp turns in the future. Yes build within the constrains you have but let the (same) foundations define what/how you build the future! Put in the hard work today, and you will be rewarded over the long course - it's as simple as that!

Sunday, March 23, 2008 7:14 AM by ork

# re: Will Silverlight Controls Become More WPF Like - A Personal Opinion

Three very quick comments:

1. Please note that these were personal specualations, not a revealing of anything from the company

2. I'm not the slightest bit tired of any of ya'... in fact I'm amazed by time and quality of the feedback.

3. ork (?) - I fully agree; when building a framework you need to be incredilby careful about what gets set in stone. My guess is that the frameworks folks think about these issues longer and harder than I do. But I'm in the lucky position that each time I go to Redmond one of the first questions I get in each meeting is "What are you hearing in the community" and I'm taking your comments (and many others) with me.

Sunday, March 23, 2008 2:00 PM by jesseliberty

# re: Will Silverlight Controls Become More WPF Like - A Personal Opinion

Good points Jesse.

We depend on you, in turn you can count on us.

Happy Easter guys and gals. ;-)

Sunday, March 23, 2008 3:23 PM by wisecarver

# Silverlight Cream for March 23, 2008 -- #232

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Sunday, March 23, 2008 8:32 PM by Community Blogs

# Blog Jocky » Blog Archive » Silverlight Cream for March 23, 2008 — #232

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# re: Will Silverlight Controls Become More WPF Like - A Personal Opinion

Firstly thanks Jesse for pushing our side of the agenda to SL team.. I wanted to share with you a request I made on SL forums today, and was hoping you could raise it further if you see value.

I was proposing Application class level API for browser's "Working Offline" mode - probably akin to the shut down type API in Windows applications, that notifies changes and acknowledges the state in the browser's "Working Offline" status. It could possibly be surrogated by cache tools in hand with isolated storage. This would be tremendously helpful in some state management scenarios. And it would certainly lay path to an eventual google gear's competitor from MS - hopefully something on the lines of Astonia offline with SQL server compact edition like what was talked about in a Mix 08 session for sync services..

Thanks, and keep listing I guess..

Tuesday, March 25, 2008 6:18 PM by ork

# Wöchentliche Rundablage: WPF, Silverlight 2, ASP.NET MVC, .NET 3.5… | Code-Inside Blog

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# wpf picture control

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Sunday, May 25, 2008 10:15 AM by wpf picture control